It's good to be king

[Dan Sez]

To those interested - after the Dungeon holds its two week waiver process, I'll start tossing up discussion threads about inclusion of IDP and tweak/mods to the existing Dungeon setup.

So there is no confusion - I will listen to advice and recommendations but there is only one king to decide the game design. I think ti worked well for the Dungeon experiment.

I won't put words in others text boxes, so ask the current residents next door if you are concerned about the provence of design. As to Running the League - I like to share power so I have no big ego to deal with on that matter. In fact I need the help to keep the group going. I hope to find similar assistance here.

And thanks to the UberDudes for providing space for SoD.

:grouphug:

As for now, any thoughts on recruitment? I've disappeared from all the old haunts and couldn't discern a "Recliner Pilot" from a "Woodie Allen" - so I will be leaning on the friends I do know. In other words, if you are on Orgazmo's shit list, don't even apply.

Woah, first post in a new league - I'll take a moment to breath.
And give thanks for the journey that is about to begin.

Lets play some ball.

[whoisjgalt]

Firstly, let's fix the punt return yardage reward to be more than the kick return yardage reward. Something like punt return yards get the same benefit as rushing/receiving yards.

[Scatterjack]

Im emailing my thoughts Dan

[Dan Sez]

Firstly, let's fix the punt return yardage reward to be more than the kick return yardage reward. Something like punt return yards get the same benefit as rushing/receiving yards.

Yeah I agree - punt yards are much harder than KOReturn yards.

[Orgazmo]

Im emailing my thoughts Dan

:sadbanana:

[Orgazmo]

As for now, any thoughts on recruitment? I've disappeared from all the old haunts and couldn't discern a "Recliner Pilot" from a "Woodie Allen" - so I will be leaning on the friends I do know. In other words, if you are on Orgazmo's shit list, don't even apply.

Oh, I don't have much of a shit list. We can post this in the sanctuary, but off the top of my head t,j and zap (you might remember them from fft) are in to the IDP scene.

As far as suggestions, finding ways for Dlinemen to earn more points would be helpful. Right now, they're like the TE position in that you have to have one but don't really carry enough load to increase their draft position.

ALSO, speaking of tight ends, ever consider maybe .5/rec to improve their worth?

[whoisjgalt]

I guess the first question relates to the starting parameters: will they be the same as for Dungeon for the offensive and kicker positions, or will those be scaled back a bit? And then how many IDPs? And I assume there will be several flex IDP options, right?

[rurbaniak]

Oh, I dread IDP. I rather take look at unique ideas, than be for inclusion of IDP. I just don't care about D lineman stats, and so forth, thats for the real GM's. That being said, if a majority are for IDP, I'll go with it.

[Scatterjack]

:sadbanana:


OK the season starts with the June draft as opposed to the SRP. (We would need a higher cap to do this. If you want to use the same cap schedule as we used in the Dungeon, simply add 6 pts to each season's cap to account for the need for sign 6 rookies in the June draft). In the June draft rookies count as 1. Vets may or may not count as 2.
After the draft we conduct a SRP. Teams can release all their rookies to keep a valuable veteran from the season before. Keep some rookies, all. whatever. This adds a little extra strategy. All players not protected in this SRP go into a waiver pool just as we do now. A waiver process runs. .Then teams must submit a roster that meets the salary cap, just as we do now.
Quick review:
June 1: June draft, 6 rounds
June 15: SRP, teams meet cap number
June 16-22: waiver process
June 30: Final rosters for current season are due

Now all players not on a roster go into the August draft pool. I am torn on what their salary value should be.
* Everyone is reset to 0
* Everyone is reset to 1
* Rookies stay at 1, and veterans are reset to 2. I like this option because it adds strategy. "You'll have to be thinking about next year while you are drafting this year."

I think this design will accomplish a few things that would benefit the league. It pretty much ensures that only rookies will be drafted in the June draft. But it also gives each team a decision as to whether they even want anyone in the draft. If a team wants to sign 6 rookies, they have to create the cap room on their team. This closely mimics the situation of many NFL teams (see Tennessee last season).
It allows us more time to see how the NFL teams change during free agency. It allows us to make more informed decisions in regards to the the 2nd tier free agents who havent signed yet. Im thinking of Corey Dillon, Chris Brown, even Randy Moss.
Or simply put, it adds another strategic component.

[whoisjgalt]

Oh, I dread IDP. I rather take look at unique ideas, than be for inclusion of IDP. I just don't care about D lineman stats, and so forth, thats for the real GM's. That being said, if a majority are for IDP, I'll go with it.

You realize that SoD is a different (new) league from Dungeon, right? I mean we're not adding IDPs to Dungeon. This is a new one that Dan has been contemplating for a couple years that removes the DT and adds a quantity of IDPs and prolly has more drafting rounds and is otherwise similar to papa Dungeon. Nickle/dime DBs who also return kicks can all of a sudden be draftable and valuable. It's also prolly another $30 or so per season.

But maybe you realize all that. :unsure:

[whoisjgalt]

...

I guess we need to decide what the goals of the SRP are. I realize that you prefer to wait to make cuts - you want nearly full information before you get locked into your decisions. Dan's design (I think) purposely forces us to have to make some guesses which ends up being a means of promoting parity. We all make mistakes along the way which allows more good players into the draft pool and thus allows the bad teams more opportunities to get better faster. (As long as you're not handicapped by having gotten a team from Swerski.)

For me, I heart the Dan design and heart what it does for the league. Dan was able to cycle from playoffs to bottom feeder to playoffs very quickly. The full info design would (IMO) impose more statis so that the bad teams would have less chance to get better quickly and the great teams would take longer to spoil.

[Scatterjack]

Very good observation Stu. You are exactly right.
This tweak was not designed for that reason though. My main goal was to incorporate the rookies into the current year's salary cap. Moving the final roster decisions to later in the summer just happened to be a fringe benefit (because like you said I am a proponent of that). And removing 'some' luck factors is a secondary fringe benefit of moving the decision back a few months.

Its certainly not flawless by any means, its just a twist to the current order of business. Id rather you focus on the devices that incorporate rookie into the cap, and drafting a veteran could cost more than drafting a rookie.

[whoisjgalt]

Very good observation Stu. You are exactly right.
This tweak was not designed for that reason though. My main goal was to incorporate the rookies into the current year's salary cap. Moving the final roster decisions to later in the summer just happened to be a fringe benefit (because like you said I am a proponent of that). And removing 'some' luck factors is a secondary fringe benefit of moving the decision back a few months.

Its certainly not flawless by any means, its just a twist to the current order of business. Id rather you focus on the devices that incorporate rookie into the cap, and drafting a veteran could cost more than drafting a rookie.

But why incorporate rookies into the cap? :headscratch: Why only allow rookies to be drafted in a certain portion of the draft, which reduces the potential of bad teams to get better by limiting their choices so much? It really makes no sense to me, but maybe I'm missing a reason (or twelve reasons) why this makes sense. What's so special about rookies that they desire their own caste?

Dungeon is very different from other dynasty leagues in that rookies aren't special. Sure, the first few draft picks in June are mostly rookies. But once the elite rookies are gone then most of us are looking for players who can help us now rather then not help us 'til they are too expensive to keep.

:dunno: :unsure: :dunno:

[Scatterjack]

Well then what would the purpose of another league?
Yes I agree that the Dungeon model is very very good.

My idea was a twist to the current model. But to answer your question of why incorporate rookies into the cap? It allows an owner another strategic device within the league model. Think about what you could do with your team heading into next season if you had 3 more points. I mean, could you keep 3 pts worth of players on your roster that are worth more than who you will get in rounds 4-6 in June? Possibly.........maybe not......but it gives you the option.

But to clarify, I never said rookies had to be drafted in any certain time.

[whoisjgalt]

But to clarify, I never said rookies had to be drafted in any certain time.

Well, what else is left for the June draft if no vets have been cut? Maybe some 3rd string WR from the prior year is a nominal starter because one guy retired and another mimiced Ben or PacMan. But the talent remains on the rosters from the prior season and with the average team having at least 30 players, what vet free agent talent would you expect to be draftable? You can't keep K's through the cuts, so they wouldn't be draftable either.

[Scatterjack]

good point

but those same vets that would have been available in the June draft will still be available in August which only makes the otherwise boring and insignificant August draft that much more interesting and compelling

[whoisjgalt]

good point

but those same vets that would have been available in the June draft will still be available in August which only makes the otherwise boring and insignificant August draft that much more interesting and compelling

So August is a vet draft and June is a rookie draft. Why? I'd rather allow the managers to choose whether he;d prefer vets to go for the win now or rooks to build for a title run later. Why take away the ability to choose? Why force everyone to take the same path (a little of both)? I can't see a compelling reason to change something that works so well already. But that's just me, maybe there are others who prefer your idea.

I like having the August draft to fill out my team - I don't think it's boring. Plenty of guys have been available in August that have been valuable players, including Henderson, Curry, and Foster just from the list I've drafted.

[rurbaniak]

You realize that SoD is a different (new) league from Dungeon, right? I mean we're not adding IDPs to Dungeon. This is a new one that Dan has been contemplating for a couple years that removes the DT and adds a quantity of IDPs and prolly has more drafting rounds and is otherwise similar to papa Dungeon. Nickle/dime DBs who also return kicks can all of a sudden be draftable and valuable. It's also prolly another $30 or so per season.

But maybe you realize all that. :unsure:


:no: I didn't realize that. This has it's own board too.. Thanks for pointing out the not so obvious to me... :weary:

[Dan Sez]

whoisjgalt has been a strong propent of the game design vision that resulted in the Dungeon. That in no way precludes Scatter or anyone else from discussing different methods of building the engine.

Heck if it inspires others to build what they consider a better model, then I take that as a compliment. I love design and problem solving puzzles. I'll talk about theory all day and night.

I'll listen, so try to convince me if you think there is a better way to do something but please, in the end, I will make a decision so lets be at peace with that. Also, when offering suggestions and comments about this new league, keep in mind the impact on

the flow of players

How does the game design impact the ability to build a team? I hope I have demonstrated with my own borg0403, that in the Dungeon, you can gut your team one season and with some sharp free agent picks, trades and a little luck, return to competitive status in one or two seasons.

I'm not bragging on my abilities, just saying that it is possible in that design to do so. There are other leagues where it could take you three or more years to rebuild.

That is not how it is in the NFL. A good GM and couch can bring a poor team into playoff contention in one season. A bad GM (cough*Matt Millen*cough) couldn't lead a hooker to a hunderd dollar bill with a strobelight and fireworks.

The Dungeon and its brother leagues (if there are to be more than one) will always aim to replicate the job of NFL General Manager - that is the vision at its core. The flow of players, the scoring system, the timeline of events are all to try and codify the "success" or "failure" of taking on this job in its mimicry of the NFL yearly cycle - Free Agency / Draft / Camp / Season / Playoffs.

When is the best place to stick in the Salary Cap in that mode of operation?

[Scatterjack]

So August is a vet draft and June is a rookie draft. Why? I'd rather allow the managers to choose whether he;d prefer vets to go for the win now or rooks to build for a title run later. Why take away the ability to choose? Why force everyone to take the same path (a little of both)? I can't see a compelling reason to change something that works so well already. But that's just me, maybe there are others who prefer your idea.

I like having the August draft to fill out my team - I don't think it's boring. Plenty of guys have been available in August that have been valuable players, including Henderson, Curry, and Foster just from the list I've drafted.

Damn you always up in my ass, haha just kidding.

Its just a twist on the current model. It may not be better, just different, and adds a different perspective. I like it, you dont. I get that.
The Dungeon is a good design, there arent too many real improvements that we are going to come up with.

[whoisjgalt]

Damn you always up in my ass, haha just kidding.

Its just a twist on the current model. It may not be better, just different, and adds a different perspective. I like it, you dont. I get that.
The Dungeon is a good design, there arent too many real improvements that we are going to come up with.

While it may appear that I'm trying pitch a battle with you, that's not my intent. Really it's all about trying to understand the pros and cons of each design methodology. I do heart me the original design, so I'm looking to see if there's a compelling reason why a different one is better. Hence, I'm asking. And I'm providing the details on why I heart the current version so that you can specifically address why the new one would be better in your opinion. That's all. And yes, Dan, I'm a strong propent.